Will it?
I've only spent time on a made horse once in my life, and let me tell you, when we were soaring over giant oxers, I wasn't sitting there going "goddammit someone else rode him through his green phase".
Obviously, it's been a different journey with Courage. We're going in a good direction now, but I sometimes wonder if we wouldn't be better off if someone else had ridden through his shenanigans. I'll never know, but it's something to think about.
So tell me. Does it matter to you whether you trained your horse or whether someone else does?
I would have bought a made horse if I had the budget. But I was limited to older horses on their way down or green beans. I went with green. That being said I want to be putting in the work and not spending all my money watching someone else train my horse.
ReplyDeleteSo in this moment I want to train my horse. It is a learning curve for both of us but we are managing. If I ever felt like I was creating more problems than fixing I would happily turn the reins over. So I guess I go both ways with a leaning towards me doing the training.
Hahaha, I loved "I wasn't sitting there going "goddammit someone else rode him through his green phase"." I think a lot of people wear the "I'm the only one that's trained this horse and I did it slowly and on my own!" as a badge of pride when in a lot of cases it isn't. I'm perfectly happy to let a pro deal with the green stuff, and help me when I'm stuck, and otherwise make riding a more pleasant experience for all involved. No shame.
ReplyDeleteTraining board is a girl's best friend! I wish I could say I put all the miles on my green horse myself, but I don't have the time and I'm not sure I have all the skills. We're learning together, but I will be thrilled to be over the green phase, and don't care WHO gets him there.
ReplyDeleteI used to want that, take it as a point of pride that even though my mare was a nightmare to jump, what progress we had was all mine. And then I realized I had nothing to prove to anyone and whatever way works best for me and my horse is the way I should go. I still sigh at riders that have their horse trained/schooled/prepped by the pros, but I happily write a check for a once a week training ride to keep me honest and on track. I've embraced the fact that I'm not a pro and I've only got so much time in any given day.
ReplyDeleteSometimes yes. When I was starting my endurance horse, 4 of them including Speedy, most of them weren't even broke to ride. I wanted them started my way. I wanted them to know their jobs without any holes in their training. I would pit my trail trainer skills against professional's.
ReplyDeleteThe dressage stuff is different, and I wish I could afford a finished horse, but since I can't, I am using a trainer's help as best as I can for an ex endurance horse with a fabulous brain and a green warmblood with oodles of talent. 😊
I like to be able to say that I "improved" my horse. So when I got Miles I was a little bit worried about that part because he was 100% finished. But despite that, his flatwork is better than it was when I got him (he's more educated) and his coat and condition is WAY better. So even though it's small things, I'm happy with that.
ReplyDeleteIf I knew what the heck I was doing and what the next step to take was with my horse, I would be really excited about getting my horse to that spot. That being said, I constantly battle the thoughts that I am potentially screwing my horse up instead of actually training him. We are both trying to learn dressage and I feel like the blind leading the blind.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was young, it mattered. It was a pride and an ego thing. Now I have no delusions, nothing to prove to anyone, and just want to do what's best for the horse. If that means getting help from a pro, that's what's going to happen. I actually have a lot more admiration for people who can put their ego aside and do what's best for the horse or most appropriate/realistic for themselves than those people who stubbornly refuse to have any contact with reality and end up ruining a good horse and/or getting themselves hurt. I don't think less of anyone who buys a more made or finished horse... in fact, I think they're probably just less delusional than most people. Myself included sometimes. ;)
ReplyDeleteAgree! I read your blog and thought it was so smart of you to have your trainer take Henry training for the first time. To me, that is a clear example of putting the horse's needs above ego.
DeleteAgreed 100%.
DeleteSeriously, check your ego at the door. I love knowing my horse inside and out and the pride that I have that I have put in the majority of the work on him. But the advanced buttons? Not me? The bullshit? That can get worked out with someone who doesn't take it personally in the tack. Shenanigans over fences? Same. I'm proud of him regardless and I don't need a proverbial pat on the back about having done it all myself.
ReplyDeleteAnd oh man, what I would do to have made horse to ride! Alas, mine is the most "made" in the barn.
Depends on what you want out of the experience. I wanted to make my own horse (difficult bugger that he is), because I wanted to learn the process of training. I know I won't have the money (and if I ever do, I won't be willing to part with it) to buy a made horse, so I'll have to make it. I already know the skills I built making my own horse translate to others, which is worth the extra time and tears (maybe, lol).
ReplyDeleteThat said, I don't think it's a badge of pride to struggle bus through moments where a trainer's guidance or outright help can get you through. That's part of learning the process, too! I don't think a training ride here or there means you didn't "make the horse". I don't think regular instruction does, either. Some people get more instruction, and some people get less. If you end the journey feeling like you understand and could re-do all the steps to the process, then you made the horse. I think you're doing it right, getting assistance from a trainer to keep you both on track.
I read somewhere that making your first horse means you kind of ruin it. They are your experiment, a sacrifice for the horses that come later. I can kind of see that. If I'd known what I know now when I got Pig, we could have done so much more. But we didn't, and that's okay too. Now I'm ready for the next one.
That last bit makes a lot of sense. There is so much to be learned from making your own horse, but you're going to do a lot of things wrong, and it's going to take a lot longer to get things right. Doesn't mean you should be glad to have learned how to do and teach those things.
DeletePenn is absolutely benefiting from all the oops moments I had with Mikey. I'll make new oops moments with him later! I've heard it said from a number of trainers- you ruin the first one because it's your first time through the levels! It's not a bad thing, it's how you learn to train horses!
DeleteI want to do it because it feels oh so good when you reach milestones or finally have a "made" horse (Waddup Yankee). However, the heartache is sometimes unbearable. The setbacks, frustrations, tears....sometimes it's a bit much. But to me it's worth it in the end and feels like a true accomplishment. Not afraid to ask for help here and there, because not everyone knows everything and fresh eyes are beneficial. But yeah. Made horses just aren't as fun for me, hah
ReplyDeleteI loved the journey with Simon, even though I had a ton of help. Sure, some times were frustrating and I definitely needed to ask for lessons/training a lot... but that transformation is something I'm extremely proud of. Hope to do the same thing with the next one.
ReplyDeleteI gotta say, it does feel good to look at how screwed up my pony was when I got him, and to look at what I've accomplished "on my own" with him. He is so much happier, fitter, healthier, and more broke these days! (except for the jumping thing. but that's another story.) But I've also gotten to the point where I recognize when I need help, and I have no qualms about asking my trainer to sit on his naughty butt when I Just Can't With Him. For me, the emotional aspect of training my own pony is really tough and it's hard for me to separate my feelings from what he needs in the moment sometimes. But I do love the training process, and I don't think I will ever be a rider who sends a horse away for training unless it is to get a baby started under saddle for the first time. I like to be hands-on - that's part of the appeal of riding for me. But in the future when I have a young horse, if it needs something I can't give it, I will happily pay a trainer to do what I can't!
ReplyDeleteYes and no. I don't have the time, energy, or skill for the entire deal. But it's really nice to see where I'm improving the horse that I have.
ReplyDeletewhile there is a sense if pride that comes along with doing it on your own (I'm currently breaking 2 home breds myself and it is exciting to teach them new things) I have no problem turning the reins over to a pro if need be. For example, when I was getting ready to move up in height (to the 1.30m) with one of my younger jumpers, my trainer took him in a few 1.30m and 1.35m classes first. I wanted his first time over big jumps to be a good experience without the possibility of my amateur mistakes. After a few weeks of showing with my trainer, I took the ride over again and have been showing him in the 1.30m without issue. I value my horses too much to let pride get in the way. My priority is for them to always feel confident in the ring. If my trainer can help with that, no problem!
ReplyDeleteI enjoy baby horses and project horses, but it takes a village. Every rider occasionally needs outside input at the very least, and what horse wouldn't benefit from a professional ride every now and then, whether green broke or made?
ReplyDeleteObviously each situation is different. I'm all for professional input and training rides when something is really falling apart, but I'm fairly confident in my ability to teach my horse most of the skills he'll need, even if progress might be a little slower. Looking back at where I was with my horse when he first came off the track 4+ years ago, it's a good feeling to see where we are now. Not only have I learned a lot in this process, it's validation that I am doing things right. Pretty much all of my riding career has been spent learning tools to make horses for other people, and it's nice to see that I've been able to put all of that learning together to make my own horse.
ReplyDeleteI am a fixer and like a challenge, I am also ridiculously cheap. Thus, I never even glanced at made horses and have preferred to bring them along myself. I kinda like the journey. Perhaps I enjoy the pain and punishment?
ReplyDeleteI love sitting on my 16 year old mare and knowing I was the first person to sit on her, did all the work on her and she is a darn cool horse. All of my horses are at least 95% mine. I do feel a great sense of pride over that. Except when they are being idiots. Then I am willing to climb into a hole with them.
ReplyDeleteI would definitely buy a horse with the highest training I can afford. Ain't no shame in my game. I don't want/like to struggle. I just don't.
ReplyDeleteSadly, due to budget constraints, I couldn't afford much in the way of built in training, so I bought a horse with a good brain, that I could muddle my way through with.
I'm focused on the destination and being able to draw from greater experience and knowledge than my own is a big part of reaching my goals. I couldn't do it without my amazing trainer as someone who had a limited budget for purchase price (comparatively, within my breed of choice) and working full time. I bought a promising young green horse because I knew I would ultimately be disappointed/heartbroken if I compromised on quality and athletic ability or bought an older schoolmaster that had to be retired a few years after purchase.
ReplyDeleteI sacrifice elsewhere in my budget to squeak in two training rides on weekdays (workdays/SO time!) in addition to my weekly lesson. My trainer is an invaluable part of me being able to own and ride the horse that I have. I'm really proud of what we've done with him so far and where we are going as a team. :)
I'm in a weird situation; my horse was broke when I got him. Knew how to w/t/c, had some training, but he really just did things and didn't have a good foundation. He did them, but he did them lazily, and very badly. His trot was horrific, his canter was horrific, he had no idea what a headset was, or what collection was. He didn't know how to trot a pole, or do nice transitions, etc. And knowing that I've polished him off is a huge deal. I get so much pride and confidence when someone who rode him before I got him rides him and says, "man, he feels like a nice horse now!" knowing that I did that training by myself. When I ride a completely made, broke, finished horse...I do kind of wish I could've been the one to create that nice floaty trot, or that smooth canter, and so on.
ReplyDeleteI'm a fixer, and I love fixing things. Now, I won't put up with a dangerous horse, but if they're semi sane and fairly safe I love "fixing" stuff and teaching them. That's very important to me.
I have much of the same feelings. Many people have told me that I will feel great knowing that I did all of the work on Sydney myself. Eh...I don't really feel all that great about it, sometimes I just really wish I could hand her over to somebody else and have them fix something or install a certain skill on her themselves. I am currently borrowing a friend's horse who has a ton of buttons and I am having a blast just being able to ask for something and get it on the first try. He is so easy to ride, its been a lot fun.
ReplyDeleteIt does and it doesn't. Sitting on Dylan is fantastic because he is SO totally made and all I have to do is do it right. The better I sit, the better he goes BUT he has a number of really odd little quirks that I find annoying and have no ability to alter this late in his life. I've had a lot of horses that I've had to retrain and they too have all sorts of weird little quirks that just are, due to their history. But, I've also been able to 'make' them into what they are now, which is extremely rewarding.
ReplyDeletePax is my first completely blank slate and I'll be the first to admit that it's been awesome. To have a 14 month old yearling that I can do ALL these things so easily, it's just awesome. I can walk up to her loose and trim her feet in the field, I can bathe her loose, I can flyspray her loose, I can put on her flymask and blanket and basically do anything I want with her at 14 months old. She is the friendliest most easygoing little beast. And THAT has been the most rewarding thing of all, I think.
I vacillate on this issue. I bought my green horse thinking I would do it mostly myself but with lessons. But when I had surgery and he was in training and I didn't go broke and it was so easy I couldn't bring myself to change anything.
ReplyDeleteNow I am getting to the point where I think I am overly relying on his trainer doing things I could and will take him out of training in the fall to hold myself more accountable.
But if that goes poorly and I start to mess things up? Back in training he will go.
Mostly I wish I could have one of each - one made horse to work on myself and one project horse to make me feel like I am doing something in life. Sadly, that is not in the budget.
Given what I'm dealing with with Carmen's training history I have a mixed response. I like doing what i can myself and hiring someone to do what I cannot. In the end we will have a better horse. So my answer is that I don't need to be the one in the saddle but I need to have control.
ReplyDeleteI'm loving doing the training myself (in a lesson program tho). It's super cool to know all the history and every little detail. Don't get mevwrong, made horses are super fun, but surprisingly, I think I might actually be turning into someone who enjoys the journey more than the end rewards.
ReplyDeleteIdk honestly. I try to enjoy horses in the moment. There is something to be said for the reward of bringing a horse along (my horse could hardly be considered green but everything we've done together has been new to her)... But there's also something to be said for struggling to let go of some bad things a horse has previously done too lol. Sometimes it's nice not to have that baggage.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn’t much matter to me. I’ve done 95% of the work myself for my mare, but I understand when I need help and when to get the trainer out. I think a lot of people are too stubborn, and are so focused on doing EVERYTHING THEMSELVES that they loose sight of what is the real goal. And thats getting your horse to the level you want safely and humanely.
ReplyDeleteI have a friend that is so opposed to having her trainer ride, she would rather have her horse sit for weeks while she’s on vacation because she doesn’t want anyone else on the horse. That to me is ridiculous and detrimental to the horse. We aren’t professionals for a reason. We all need help sometimes!
I'm with Austen- taking lessons and paying for some training rides doesn't mean you didn't make the horse yourself. Everyone gets help, even professionals.
ReplyDeleteI think there's something to be said for bringing your horse along yourself - you learn more that way. Yes, it will not be perfect and you'll probably ruin your first horse (sorry Mikey, sorry Penn), but it's how you learn. I hold professionals to a different standard though - they had best make their own horse. By all means, take a ton of lessons and have training rides for the complex stuff. But I know of a professional who has her competition horse in full training a state away (and not just for a few weeks - we're talking a year plus). She comes in for lessons and shows. That's not cool in my book.
Kudos to riders who can buy schoolmasters that have a bunch more years on them. It's not something I would do (or can afford) - I like training the horse. One such rider (who had a hard time getting satisfactory scores on a non-made horse) told me "Oh, most horses can do third level, or Penn might make a nice hunter." That really rubbed me the wrong way - she's never trained a horse up - she bought a PSG horse to get her medals on. So there's some judgement there. I'll always give more credit and training idea respect to riders who do the work themselves.
It's definitely a matter of pride for me - I made Penn so far. My trainer has sat on him twice. Once after he came home because he was new and she had to try him out, and once when we were struggling with some training so she sat on him to get a better feel for the holes. I'll be extremely proud when I get my bronze on him. I will have installed every button on that horse. But later on in training I know I'll have to hand him over to a professional for the more upper level dressage work. I had my trainer do countless rides and several shows on Mikey when we were moving up levels in eventing. I needed him to be brave when I wasn't, and he needed a brave rider first. No shame there, I didn't want either of us to get killed.
My jaw dropped a little at the pro with their horse in training. Why would you pay them if they don't have enough faith in themselves to train their own horse???
Delete"I'll always give more credit and training idea respect to riders who do the work themselves."
DeleteYUP
I want both, argh! I love the green beans, and I love how every day is a new milestone. But as I like to tell people, I haven't sat on anything that was both sound and had both leads in almost 2 years, and I would love for a chance to ride something where I can just work on ME. And I don't think there is anything shame in pro training... I recently saw a horse I used to know 4 years ago, and 4 years later it's still galloping out of control around the 2' because it only gets ridden 3x a week and unsuited to its job.
ReplyDeleteI'm in a weird position with Pearl, because while she wasn't green when I bought her, I had zero idea of her training history, plus I knew she had at least 5 years sitting making babies. So some days I feel like a loser being like "yeah my 18 year old is kinda sorta schooling 1st level," and I don't know how much of the actual under saddle movements I "taught" her, but I know I have made a huge difference to her attitude and the way she faces life. Everyone who knows her from our equestrian team days can't believe I trail ride her, ride her bareback, give pony rides off her. So that's kind of cool, and not something I would get if I were, say, leasing a schoolmaster to get my bronze.
But I still think it takes skill to ride a made horse (gotta push all those buttons just so!), so again, nothing wrong with that. But I guess if I did magically come across a made schoolmaster, I'd want to bring myself up to its level, and then take us both further. So I guess my answer is I do like doing the training.
I make/train my own horses because 1) I am a poor journalist and 2) Each horse teaches me new tools to bring to the next one. They each make you a better rider. Made horses also make you a better rider, but they come with a different set of tools. Everyone has their own journey. It's not right or wrong to make your own, or buy one already trained.
ReplyDeleteI loved doing all the work on Don myself but I reached a point where I did not know how to go further. At that point I did have my friend who had retrained a lot of racehorses come sit on him a few times, and she gave me a few lessons on her higher level dressage thoroughbreds.
ReplyDeleteI wish some people I see weren't so determined to go it alone. Having lessons and the occasional training ride is a huge benefit. Whether your help is a professional or experienced friend, doesn't matter. I never once thought I didn't do all the training myself, a handful of rides does not a trained horse make.
Now when I've gotten to sit on extremely broke horses, those have been really fun. I cannot say that I wouldn't buy a schoolmaster if I had the money.
It matters to me, but I've already ridden the "made" horses and now I'm at a place where I want to "make" my own horses. I don't care if someone else is riding a made horse: their story is not mine, they aren't in the same place I am, their goals are not mine. And, honestly, there are many, many times that I sit on my horses that I'm trying to make for myself and I'm angry and frustrated and I wish I'd bought the damn made horse.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, I must add one caveat: If you buy a GP horse and then turn around and claim to be a GP trainer, I will laugh at you. Mercilessly.
I'm a fixer. Even when I was riding "made" horses in lessons, my trainers liked putting me on the problem horses or the ones everyone was too afraid/intimidated to ride because for whatever reason, those horses were better with me. Then they'd tell me what to do to correct any issues that came up. And so I became addicted to "fixing."
ReplyDeleteMy first horse was a clean slate: I did all of his training, since he was given to me as a weanling. I didn't know much back then, but we had a trainer come out to help me through rough spots and I went out of my way to take lessons and catch ride as much as possible in an effort to learn as much as I could as fast as I could. I was 13, with a supportive mother and grandfather. There is a LOT that could have been done better, in hindsight, but wow did he come out a solid all-arounder. I could do anything on Lucero. I trusted him implicitly.
All of my other horses have been rescues, even the one "made" mare that was a confirmed 1.40 meter jumper. She was solid over fences and I jumped up to 4' on her on my own, no trainer, because I knew she'd get me over every time. If I made any mistake, she'd take a rail. She significantly improved my riding during a time when I did not have access to trainers! I still had to teach her that going on the occasional trail ride was okay though. So I think "made" is a relative term.
I enjoy training my own horses, slowly installing their buttons, conditioning them for the type of work I want them to do. I think every horse should be able to do a little bit of everything: every horse I've owned has enjoyed jumping, even the gaited ones. Every trail/endurance horse I've owned has done dressage. Whenever I've run into training issues beyond my scope, I ask for the assistance of a trainer, usually in the form of lessons so I can learn to fix the issues. Lily was probably one of the more difficult horses I've trained because, while there were trust issues in the beginning, the times I tried having a trainer work directly with her (training rides, for example) she would be WORSE. It wasn't due to poor handling on the trainer's part (I am incredibly strict about what I require in a trainer) she simply has always been a one-person horse due to her early history of abuse. She did better in a lesson format with me riding her while a trainer offered guidance from the ground. Gracie was re-started by a professional whose style I was familiar with, so I simply continued where he left off and voila: she became a pretty awesome husband horse and the one I choose when I want to ride without having to think.
While I've enjoyed my journeys with most of mine, training your own horse(s) is not for the faint of heart. And like others have said, the person should know in advance what their limits are and what they can and can't handle, and have a professional they trust ready to step in to help if needed. As one who has been paid in the past to be the person to fix other people's horses, I can tell you that it's a lot easier to completely ruin a horse than it is to fix it, and one of the most frustrating things for a trainer to deal with is a non-compliant owner/rider that time and again undoes all of your hard work and disregards advice. Hence why nowadays I only work with my own horses.