This is a funny topic that seems to be wildly polarizing. I've ridden with a lot of different trainers. Some of them are like "OMG MOVE THE BIT IN THE HORSE'S MOUTH SO IT'S NOT DEAD" and others are like "OMFG STOP MOVING THE BIT BC OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE A FAILURE"Or something. Those possibly aren't direct quotes, but I tried to capture the essence.
Now I assume that we're all of the school of thought that we do in the moment what works at the time for the horse that we're riding, but what does that look like for you? Hands still? Fingers moving? Hands moving? Eff it and loopy reins?
Contact for me used to be see-saw the horse's mouth because that is what I was taught and I dumbly thought this was the case. I have now found out that this is never the case for any horse. Ever.
ReplyDeleteFor most horses I find that a steady weight of 1/2 lb in each hand is sufficient. The arms move with the horse's mouth as the horse moves, which keeps flexibility in your elbows and maintains the exact same contact. Either rein can be applied to adjust the horse with a finger wiggle or a slight wrist tilt - that is it. I normally apply halts and more severe half halts with a stillness in my elbow and a light wiggle on the reins. Of course, some horses may require more, but I went from having an INSANELY heavy horse to a crazily light horse in the reins by adjusting and using this method.
haha! Love the not so direct quotes! Can I choose the middle ground? Some movement some still? I like to start the conversation if a horse is resistant by wiggling my fingers as if I was rolling a coin through them, but if things are rolling along pretty decent I try and leave the bit alone. I mean if I had a hunk of metal in my mouth I don't think I would want to feel worried about it bumping my teeth.
ReplyDeleteHaha! Agree with Hawk, no see saw ever. I was essentially taught that too, as H/J kid. Lately, I focus on maintaining contact, but never moving or pulling my hands back. I haven't quite wrapped my head around the idea of pushing the head down, but I'm working on forward and communication with my core and seat. So, contactwise, I try not to ride with my hands. As for pressure, I think someone described gently squeezing a sponge and that stuck with me. Also, holding a potato chip for not gripping too tightly as to crush it.
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm more of a "movement" person. I am constantly evaluating what's happening and responding accordingly (more leg, more hand, less hand, etc.). I guess if everything is going perfectly, I like to have a little loop in my rein. Clear as mud? LOL
ReplyDeletei'm still super green to the concept of contact and am trying to figure it out as i go along. my trainer tells me often to not fuss with the bit when the horse is braced against my hand. she says it it just becomes noise at that point, and instead she wants to see steadiness from my hands until the horse softens. when the horse is soft to my hands and to the bend, i can have a little more 'play' in the contact....
ReplyDeleteThis is interesting - my new instructor says the exact opposite. That when my horse braces on the reins or against my hands that breaking up the contact is an effective way to get the horse to soften - e.g. wiggling the inside rein like squeezing a sponge.
DeleteI learned to ride in sketchy local H/J land where WE DO NOT TOUCH THE MOUTH, EVER. Then I started learning dressage, and it took me a long time to understand that weight in the reins is OK and will not kill the horse. Now, I am trying to get to the point of a constant, light contact wherein the bit doesn't move much unless I'm actually using it to communicate something to the horse. But, unless things are going along perfectly (which they rarely are!) contact changes constantly. Sometimes you need more, or less, or different contact depending on the situation. When the pony blows through my half-halts, I need to pull back strongly. When he just needs a little reminder about flexion, I need to squeeze the inside rein gently. Contact is a conversation... it changes!
ReplyDeleteFor me, it's hard to define contact from the side of the rider alone because it really is a 2 way conversation with the horse. If the horse is soft, keep a steady connection (i.e, still without closing your fist so strongly that the horse feels manacled to your hand). Because if you continue to wiggle, move your hands, etc you're cueing the horse and possibly confusing it- isn't it already giving you want you want?
ReplyDeleteBut, if the horse is bracing, then you need to adjust the connection on your end to elicit a response on the horse's end. Depending on the horse sometimes that means holding more pressure in the reins, for others it's flexing the horse softly back and forth to "unlock" the poll, and even more likely, it's about engaging the hind end to lighten the front.
Just my .02 :) Sorry for the novel
Agreed! There's not really one answer that works for everything. Some horses need to you just patiently continue to ask them to soften while you hold, while others need the movement to get them to soften. And even when they are being good, I find that occasionally they are only 80% engaged, and are actually a little tuned out and need a wiggle to tune back in.
DeleteThis is a good question but hard to explain. AS a dressage venter who rides OTTBs that prefer contact, usually, I ride with a good feel. Usually the outside rein. both boys prefer steady and silent contact unless I am asking for bend or a transition to canter. In general, I try to keep my hands steady and chill. Jumping is another matter though...I am also doing a terrible job communicating here so I'm done trying haha
ReplyDeleteWhereas the OTTBs I have are something of the opposite -- if can keep your contact feather light that would be best for them, thanks.
DeleteWhen Murray is steady I keep my hands pretty still, just letting them follow the movement of the gait. Even in the trot there is some movement (not a lot), and I don't want to be accidentally jiggling the bit by NOT following the movement.
If Murray is ignoring me or bracing his jaw against me I don't really ask for more contact, I just ask for him to soften and communicate. Then I use a wiggly-finger motion, like Redheadlins said, almost like moving a coin between your fingers. I try to keep it playful so it encourages him to stop bracing and soften.
My friend lessoned me on her big OTTB who is heavy in the bridle and he needed a pretty rhythmic series of squeezes and half halts (combo hand/leg/core) to stay soft and through, and she basically called out everything I needed to do to get him there and I just did it as she said. That is harder for me to ride because it's a more active ride (still not so good at coordinating my hands), but it's also easier to keep my hands in the right position that way.
I have very light hands and as such it seems that Riley likes a light, but decidedly steady contact. I once had someone describe contact to me as the feeling you would get if you put your hand in a small stream (the flow of water against your hand). Riley is just now understanding that the outside rein is his friend and that my intermittent wiggles on the inside rein mean a reward when he stays soft (and stops leaning). All of that said, I need to for-the-love-of-god shorten up my reins! He can get behind the vertical even maintaining contact and he baits me into slipping away my reins little by little!
ReplyDeleteIMO hands should be a steady, soft place for a horse to go. Never pulling, definitely never see-sawing. I try to think of the reins as more of a supplemental aid to back up the leg and seat, rather than vice versa. My trainer said something once that I thought summed it up perfectly, and I always think of it when I'm riding: "Keep your hands in one place and ride the horse up into them". The amount of contact varies from horse to horse - some like a lot, some only like a little, but the same general principle of leg INTO steady hand always applies.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great explanation! Always riding back to front.
DeleteFunny how subjective contact is depending on training and discipline, let alone the horse you ride. I remember learning seesaw too, was this just en vogue at some point universally?
ReplyDeleteFor my horse to keep her in an uphill frame it's a pretty firm contact with lots of leg. Then occasionally I do have to wiggle to flip the bit or back her up because she tends to lean on me until I have no more leg to push with. I know GM freaked at rein wiggling and was all about contact starting at the leg then hand when I audited.
So subjective to discipline! Growing up in AQHA-land, contact is SO hard for me because I learned to ride with loopy loose reins. As in, put your hand down, ride only off seat and leg and don't touch your horse's face unless absolutely necessary. Of course that's more in western tack than hunt seat, but even our hunters go on so much less contact than dressage/hunters/eventers. It's been a really hard adjustment for me!
ReplyDeleteMy horse likes to curl. To get him to stretch out and down into the contact, I have to stay very soft and steady and ride him forward into it without letting him get strung out and pulling from the front. This is mostly done from my seat/leg/core. With my hands I pretty much try to stay very soft and steady. I have a bad habit of letting my elbows lock which he does not appreciate.
ReplyDeleteHands still but not dead/hanging/frozen on the reins. If adjustments need to be made, I prefer a larger movement with the hand/arm to finger/wrist wiggling, as I find that just shakes the horse off the contact. Every horse is different, but I generally dislike anything that "softens the jaw" (any sort of rapid bit movement that the horse cannot follow) since it discounts the rest of the horse's body.
ReplyDeleteI have always been taught that contact is something to ride into not against. With Annie I have been having to change what I know about contact as she is very sensitive but requires a lot of leg and support. It all varies and I would say their is no black and white when it comes to horses.
ReplyDeleteFavorite British Trainer always told us to "talk" to the horses with the reins, but she was quick to jump on you if it turned into "dancing around with your hands". BM likes to occasionally yell at me to put my effing inside leg on and just drop my reins because my horse is naughty and leaning, but we're getting better about that. :P
ReplyDeleteGreat topic!
ReplyDeleteIt is certainly subject for discussion and relative to the horse, the day, the desired outcome and most of all the situation. I used to worry about my hands all the time until a trainer told a friend of mine watching me ride that I had the quietest hands they had seen in a long time.
There was one barn where it was all about see-sawing and just keeping the head down. Any wonder why their horses were never in the ribbons?
The pony can go from loose rein and behaving brilliantly to F THIS! Game on! all in a matter of entering at "A". *sigh*
My OTTB mare has lately been awesome riding her bareback with a halter & lead rope. She is learning to listen to my body and even my breathing, not so much my hands. That part is really cool and not something I ever would have imagined getting to do with her. Otherwise one thing I noticed that always settled her down- if my hands start bouncing or moving to much- I lose her. If I think to myself- "Quiet your hands" and do that, she softens immediately and comes back to her sane self.
I like the sponge and potato chip analogies. Another friend likens it to milking a cow or goat. You don't get much milk when you're brutal about it, yanking or pulling on the teat.
The analogy I've heard is that holding the reins is like holding a baby chick, you don't want it to escape, but you don't want to crush it either!
ReplyDeleteI've totally given up on explaining it with words because it changes from moment to moment, horse to horse, rider to rider, discipline to discipline. One moment, Theo's a board and I'm having WWIII trying to unlock him, then he's disappeared behind, then he's just right. This can happen in the span of a minute. And what works for one horse won't work for another! Steady hand and kick them up into it? Fi would have flipped over with me when we started out. I know I've got it when I know I can make any change I want with very little movement because my horse is balanced and listening, but how to get there? A million roads to Rome. Some you know to avoid (see saw, overly harsh bits, etc) but the rest, go ahead and try them once or twice. You never know. So long as you safely end up in Rome, it's all good.
ReplyDeleteI'll take a stab :o) I was originally taught the see-saw as well (of course it was not called that but that's what it was). It has been deathly hard to unlearn over the past 19 years. What I do know now from my time in dressage land has been:
ReplyDelete1. Contact should be consistent and elastic.
2. Contact should be equally accepted on both sides.
3. The horse should seek the contact.
My mare will not tolerate nagging with the hands or pulling back. She has only ever known soft hands that are elastic and sort of as a supporting security blanket, "Come back, we're stable, we're fine, come back." (Thanks to my trainer...) This is achieved through quiet, giving contact.
I think it's would be a misunderstanding to look at contact as limited to the rider's hands and reins. That's having tunnel vision IMO. Contact comes from balance and impulsion, especially from the hind legs, and should reach over the horses back (back to front). So a horse is not put "on the bit" via the reins but rather through systematic, gymnastic work (ahem dressage) that encourage the horse to seek the contact.
Clear as mud? I don't really understand it yet but I get glimpses of it here and there and I see my trainer ride with it. I am consciously incompetent... so there's my stab!
Rebecca (backinthetack.wordpress.com)
For me it seems to vary based on my horse's balance. At first I had a very light contact but now as we've progressed and are doing more dressage she needs a little more contact to help her balance herself. I've found that with Katai she needs a very steady contact and any sort of fussing on my part makes her tense. With that being said, when she locks up her jaw my trainer has me wiggle my pinky (not my ring finger but my pinky) which just barely sort of softens my contact and encourages her to relax and soften.
ReplyDeleteIn my experience, it depends on the horse and their preferences and needs. When things are going perfectly with Pig? I don't need to move my hands at all. They stay light and following and he stays right up in them.
ReplyDeleteBut that's not usual, at least for the start of our rides. He takes quite a bit of wiggling and movement to keep him from locking up and tuning out the bit. I like to think of it as dangling a chew toy out in front of a reluctant dog. "Come on, boy! Get the bone! Get your bone, buddy! Get it! Take it!"
Other horses find a bit that moves too much uncomfortable and it backs them off. Too much movement = less stable for them.
It's a balance. Really, you have to just figure out what works. Just like holding hands with a significant other, it's similar but different to holding hands with your ex. (Is... is that weird?)
Also, this: http://horselistening.com/2016/02/09/what-is-contact-the-second-stage/
DeleteYaaaas this article says what I was trying to say SO much better
DeleteAt this point in time, contact is officially the bane of my existence. At least with Indy.
ReplyDeleteHaha there's a reason I have a whole blog about it...
Delete